Victoria Stilwell "It's Me or the Dog" - Review

Well said, K9 guy. As Cesar Millan's executive producer and co-writer, you have no idea the slander and abuse we receive daily from PR-only trainers who have decided to characterize Cesar's methods as cruel. If they actually watched the show or read the books, they'd see that Cesar uses positive reinforcement all the time- but in the appropriate circumstances. In the dog's natural world, their fellow pack members don't bribe them to get them to stop behavior that could be dangerous or destructive to the pack. The give them one warning, a correction, and the problem is solved.

I watched the first episode of, "It's Me or the Dog" which you (K9 guy) described, and contrary to your statement that the dog was not "proofed," the typical episode formats that I've seen involve the recently trained dog's exposure to previous problem scenarios (for instance, re-exposure to guests in the home, with improved results).

You appear to have biases against PR training, but neglected to mention the sound aversion, or what you might know as positive punishment, training method which Stilwell uses. (from classical and operant conditioning psychology). It seems to me that her positive punishment is at least as effective as Millan's own, and simply varies in style. The most visible difference is probably that Millan's positive punishment is more likely to be viewed by critics as abuse since it involves physical contact rather than sound.

Many people seem to like conceptualizing "the dog's natural world" when referring to pack mentalities and such. Though I do not pretend to be an expert on dog training, I feel that this perspective disregards the many generations of domestication that most dogs have undergone. This is problematic, is it not?

Dear "Dog Lover";

I appreciate your comments and viewpoint. In the end, it's certainly up to an owner to decide what methods they feel are best for their dog. In fact, if you read this blog regularly, I feel this is a responsibility for owners - to educate their dogs so to achieve good behavior.

Regarding Victoria Stillwell's show, my comments on lack of proof were based on results shown after several weeks with dogs she had worked. While the episodes try to imply the dogs are better, as a trainer I did not see what I would consider adequate results. In all cases the dogs still required treats, or toys, or long lines to maintain even modest control in many cases. Perhaps these dogs did improve over a longer term, but for my own clients I would not be satisfied with her "results". The purpose of my original post was to point out what you are (I think) trying to say - take what you see on TV with a grain of salt.

Again - every owner has a responsibility to their dog. They should choose whatever method they feel is best for their situation. But regardless of how well marketed PR training is by shows such as Ms. Stillwell's, various websites, and numerous pet organizations - in the end there are many dogs where PR training has failed miserably. Dogs do require leadership. Ignoring bad behaviors (in the hopes they will stop) or distracting dogs with toys or treats (to elicit some other behavior) does nothing to teach, communicate, or develop respect. Without these things problems typically persist, owners get frustrated, and dogs live a life of confusion.

While Ms. Stilwell likes to talk about structure and leadership, her methods don't create them. Her program may be entertaining, but when you "talk the talk" and won't "walk the walk" it's just marketing to me.

It is also problematic to talk about long-term results within a half-hour/hour format. I think something we can all agree on is that the episode format of dog training we recieve on television cannot show a complete picture of what is taking place with the dog(s), trainer, and owner(s). Watching only two episodes of someone using a different style than you prefer favors your biases--no matter your perspective, as long as you have a strong opinion you will probably only see what you want to see.

I agree on all of the above. I watched the episode of Bones last night where Cesar Milan guest starred. I went online to look him up. I was really horrified by the controversy betweeen Cesar and Victoria Stilwell.

I watched It's Me or the Dog for years. I'd sit there thinking, "How does shouting and clapping your hands make a dog cooperate? All it does is scare the dog." I was stunned when she turns her back on the Rottie--I've learned in various biology classes, TV documentries, and a session with a K9 officer that you NEVER turn your back on a dog. It's a sign of submission. I actually tried this a few days after when I was talking with my friend whose has a Lab. We were talking, and I kept my back to the dog (I'm not afraid of it, if anyone asks) and suddenly she jumped up drove her full weight behind her paws and knocked me into the fridge. This happened at least twice with the Lab and once with a spaniel who followed me around, barking, so I stopped doing that. And that thing about eating out the dog's bowl? I don't get that--that's a dog's property, wouldn't some of them get upset?

About a year ago, my boyfriend's brother and sister in law dumped off their three Pomerianians while they went on vacation. They were noisy, fighting with everyone, biting, chasing the cats, stealing food, etc. By this time I was watching the Dog Whisperer,so I held out my fingers and said, "Hey! Ssh!" All three skidded to a halt and stared at me. I tried to stay calm, so I told the two boys to lay down. I didn't have to punish them (which surprised me) because after spending a few hours alone with them, they were perfectly fine. The puppy I couldn't do anything for.

Both trainers have their pros and cons: Cesar has the dog psych center, spends a lot of personal time with them, and can easily recognize some of the problems that's going on, whether it's dog or human. I don't mind the poking or setting the dog on its back (I've actually seen dogs do this to each other, though that other dog trainer-Patricia something, I can't remember--says that she's never seen it done), I'm kind of okay with the choke collar, it looks brutal sometimes, but it's not like he's making the dog gag. He's smacked some on the nose a few times which really startled me. But he reminds us that a dog is a dog, not a person.

Victoria Stilwell has some clever ideas. She spends time in the house with the family to get a better idea of what's going on, and she chastises them about their bad habits (like feed dogs Doritos.) But she comes up with bizarre techniques, like banging pots togther, shout "Ah!" and clapping her hands, turning her back, gives them treats as a reward (Pavlov). Some here mentioned that she never gives updates like Cesar does. I never noticed it before, but they're right. I'd like to know how sucessful those dogs were.

So, in the end, I have to go with Cesar, primarily because he treats dogs like dogs and the few times where *I've* actually used it seemed more sucessful than when I tried Victoria's. Victoria's method seems to center around a lot of noisey ambushes (there was an episode where a dog kept trying to pee in its bed, and she shouted very loudly to the point that dog looked like it didn't know what to do anymore.) And unlike her, I will never go walking around banging pots at nervous dogs.

I watched Victoria helped a couple whose names were Rick and Jodi. What city was she in?

Caroline, looks like Victoria operates out of her current residence of Georgia.
As a southerner (MS), I'll attest that country folk manage dogs with something more like Ceasar's methods than Victoria. After watching her I conclude she's fairly well a nitwit. All she does is distract the dogs with food, making a servant of the humans. And babble.
In any case, the main problem with the give-treats method is that when you don't have treats, the dog doesn't behave. I've gotten better results with a stern facial expression than a warm sausage...

As a Certified Master Trainer of 17 years, I must agree with the comments that Ms.Stillwell is more then a bit clueless when it comes to understanding true canine behavior.Ignoring bad behavior does nothing other then make you look weak in the eyes of a dog.Turning your back? Are you serious? I see her remove many of the dogs to a crate or pen for "naughty" behavior.That is what someone who has no knowledge on how to fix the behavior does. The most frightening episode I saw was where she took two dogs off leash,who had no recall.When the dog's ran off she took the owner to fall on the ground and pretend to be injured in hopes that the dogs would return to "investigate".With that so called method of training your dog could be dead in the road while you are on the ground playing dead.If you want to call yourself a professional trainer then start acting like one. Way to risk the life and safety of a dog Victoria. I am truly amazed that she has a show. She is all about compassion for dog's,show a little respect for owner's. Remember-if they knew the answers they would have not called you in the first place.She is both rude and insensitive. the I have trained over 6,000 dog's throughout the years, and am thrilled to be saving dog's from going to shelters for behavioral issues.However, if pet owner's follow her "methods" shelters nationwide will become full. She "fixes" nothing and is an complete embarrassment to the training industry. As you can tell I feel VERY strongly about this topic.

Having watched both Stillwells and Millans shows, I have to say that I put a lot more faith in Millans methods. And I'm glad there are dog trainers that don't look with disdain at his practices. I love dogs and I would never do anything that would hurt them, and I figure that the criticism from these other prominent dog trainers are just an attempt at promoting their methods as the best, and putting down their competition.

I can't believe this person is taken seriously by anyone. If this nutcase was working as a human psychologist, her license would be revoked and she'd be sued for malpractice. Simply unbelievable. Let's forget for just a moment that this "trainer" accomplishes absolutely nothing with dogs. Let's look at the format of the show. It's a complete rip-off of Supernanny. British lady shows up, does her touchy-feely thing, leaves, watches on a computer, then comes back. Her roaring up in her Corvette is absolutely ridiculous!

This show makes me furious!

I have had ranch dogs for many many years. Dogs working around livestock MUST be well trained. I have never had dogs (or children!!) act like the ones do on both of the shows under discussion. But any little tricks I have picked up to "fine tune" a few behaviors have come from Cesar.
The one thing that bothers me most about any dog shows on TV, Cesar, Victoria, Dog Twon, etc etc is that Cesar is the ONLY person to teach dogs to heel. The first dog I ever had over 50 years ago walked by my side on a loose leash or off leash. Everybody but Cesar lets the dogs pull ahead. EVERYBODY It makes me lose all respect for any of their training methods.

I personally have found Victoria's methods much more rewarding than the dog whisper, whom in his books mentions slapping the dog to get his attention.

Tammy;

Thanks for posting your comment. Which book of Cesar's discusses slapping dogs? It's been a few years since I've read "Cesar's Way" but there was no mention of slapping in that book to my recollection.

Also, the point of my review on Victoria's show was that I did not feel it showed effective results. In other posts I've challenged visitors to meet their dog's needs for leadership. While Ms. Stilwell's show discusses leadership, IMO it doesn't actually establish that leadership. I would agree many owners may find Victoria's methods "much more rewarding" (to them), but I would argue the dogs on her show don't feel the same.

It's Me or The Dog makes me think I should try to get a tv show about dog training...I am not even close to qualified to be a trainer, but she makes me think i can do it. I would like to be the first person to suggest a PayPerView bareknuckle event with Ceasar and Victoria this summer.

Wow. It's a sad day when people are supporting a trainer like Mr. Millan that condones kicking, poking, slapping, choke chains and shock collars. Both the APDT and the AVSAB have all stepped forth to proclaim their positions against Mr. Millan's techniques. Slowly, very slowly, the public is beginning to become aware that fear does not equate to respect and that you don't need to physically engage and/or intimidate your dog to get them to behave.

Dan-
Thanks for your comments. Regarding the organizations your mention it's quite clear they prefer only positive reinforcement training. I see dogs, literally every week, trained using only positive reinforcement methods. Many of these dogs have been trained for years using these methods, and frankly their owners are at wits end.

I agree that intimidation does not equal respect - but neither does being a pal to your dog. Complete communication with dogs requires more than rewards, it requires a balance of praise, help, control of resources and yes, some corrections. It requires leadership and structure rather than negotiations and luring.

While the owners of some dogs with certain personality types may reach modest goals with strictly positive reinforcement, there are many dogs that are made worse by these methods.
While every owner needs to make their owner decisions regarding their dog's education, they deserve to be informed.

I am a professional dog trainer and I use positive reinforcement for some instances but not all because you just simply can't use a treat to make a dog not bite another dog anymore or you simply can't just lure that dog away from the problem that he/she is causing because this will happen over and over again, you will keep having to use a lure to make your dog leave whatever it's chasing after and it doesn't fix the problem because if it did then why do you have to do it over and over again? There was an incident where a trainer told a man from New York to throw treats on the ground to distract his dog from attacking other dogs or trying to go after other dogs. Soon the dog learned that if he ate the treats quickly he can go after the other dogs so you see he gets a twofer. He gets fed and then he can go after the other dogs, so this proves that positive reinforcement doesn't work all the time and this man that I'm actually talking about had to call Cesar Millan after he went to so many positive reinforcement only trainers and they all failed.

I would like to comment on the comment from Dan. Dan said that Cesar condones kicking, poking, slapping, choke chains, and shock collars. I have to wonder if Dan has actually read Cesar's books or seen more than one of Cesar's episodes. I have read all three of Cesar's books and I have watched almost all of the episodes of his television show, and the picture I see of Cesar is very far from the picture that Dan paints. And to be fair, I am now starting to read books from the Positive Reinforcment method side of things...and I've also watched many episodes of Stillwell's show. I'm trying to educate myself in all viewpoints so that I can make my own fair assessment. I've also noticed that I NEVER hear Cesar talk poorly about other dog trainers, but you ALWAYS hear other dog trainers bad-mouth Cesar...it sure does make Cesar seem like the mature one. But back to Dan's comment. First the "pokes"...Cesar is always correcting the dog's owners when they try to simulate Cesar's "pokes" or "kicks" using Dan's words...he always tells them that it's supposed to be a firm "touch" and NOT a push...it's simply a touch...it does not hurt the dog. When Cesar uses his foot to tap the side of the dog during walks, again, it is just a touch with the side or bottom of his foot, it is NOT a kick with any kind of malicious force at all. As far as the slapping goes, I have not seen Cesar slap or condone slappings dogs, so I'm not sure where that is coming from. With the choke collars....the only leashs/collars that I've seen Cesar bring along to a client and use were his pieces of nylon rope and the Illusion Collar that his wife came up with...and with the nylon rope, Cesar is always very much about walking with NO tension on the line and to walk as if you're carrying a briefcase...very calm and relaxed with no tension...so he does NOT condone choking dogs as Dan perhaps implies. Now, you will see on his episodes that many times, Ceser uses whatever tools the owners already have and use, so sometimes he does use their choke chains or prong collars, but he shows them how to use them correctly so that the dog is NEVER hurt...No tool for dogs should EVER hurt the dog. As far as shock collars go, I have only seen Cesar use a shock collar on one episode and in that episode it was used to save a farm dog from constantly getting run over and injured from chasing tires (tractor tires, truck tires, etc...)...they gave the dog a small stimulation the moment it focused on the tire. In one of his books, Cesar also mentioned using a shock collar to condition his dogs to stay away from rattlesnakes, which I guess were a danger in the area where the dogs were sometimes walked. So both cases were life-or-death issues. My dog is an air scent search and rescue dog, and I invested in a shock collar so that I would be able to use it to save my dogs life if need be...for example, if he decides to chase a deer across a busy highway instead of searching for his victim (which he shouldn't do, but it could always happen and those scenarios are hard to set up in training), my safety net is that I can use the stimulation to distract him and help him to focus back on me....keep in mind that he may be 20 or 30 or 60 yards away from me and so an audible command, a visible command, or a treat to lure is not always realistic. Many hunters also use these collars to keep their dogs safe while hunting. I very much do NOT want to hurt my dog, and yes, I did apply the stimulation to my own skin so that I would know exactly how it felt, and I have to say, the first two levels gave me more of a "startling" feeling, made me jump a bit...I would not say that they "hurt" me...it felt more like a carpet shock or the feeling you get when you're hooked up to a muscle stimulus machine...and I didn't try a higher level than that, but I also don't use a higher level than that on my dog, either...but I suppose if it came right down to it, and my dog was about to get injured on a search and the first two levels didn't break his focus on whatever had distracted him, I would use a higher level to save his life...I don't think that makes me cruel or a maniac....if it helps me save my dog's life someday, it is totally worth it...it's the least I can do since he's going to be out there trying to save the lives of the human victims he's looking for. And yes, my dog is trained, but NO dog is perfect, and there is ALWAYS a chance my trained search and rescue dog decides that the deer across the highway smells better than the human he's looking for. And yes, after the search is over, my dog gets to run and play and "be a dog" again. Anyway, so in the right hands, even shock collars can be used humanely. All tools can hurt and all tools can help, it all depends on how they're used, and Cesar NEVER wants to hurt or abuse the dog. Am I crazy for my viewpoint?

Ok, I started reading a book on positive reinforcement last night. The first few pages are talking about the differences between PR training and "traditional" methods. Holy cow! I had NO idea that "traditional" methods were what this books says that they are....Cesar does NOT use these "traditional" methods either, so why does everyone accuse him of setting dog training back 20 years? The traditional methods were all about using pain...one method mentioned was using an "ear pinch" to help train a dog to carry a dumbbell for an obedience competition.....pinch the dog's ear and when it protests in pain stick the dumbbell in it's mouth and let off on the ear so that the dog learns that he can stop the pain by carrying the dumbbell. Another method was kneeing a dog in the chest when it tried to jump up on you. I was horrified that these methods were EVER used....I can't imagine feeling good or being able to justify using pain to train a dog like this. I then became very confused at why people say that Cesar is setting dog training back 20 years....Cesar does not condone using any pain at all with dogs....he's always very calm and firm, but he NEVER inflicts pain or uses such barbaric techniques. It makes me wonder if people actually watch Cesar or read his books before they make such accusations.

I am a very fond on Victoria Stilwell's training methods, read her books, and practices those methods on my own dog at home. im rpoud to say she is very happy, healthy and so am i. i have seen Cesar's show and read bits and pieces of his book "Cesar's Way" and i dont whole-heartedly agree with the fact that you have to negatively touch your dog at all to make a behavioral correction. while it may not me malicious in intent, positive reinforcement is meant to get your dog to think on its own. better to have a well-informed and knowledgable owner who can have a dog think for itself, than have a well-informed, over-bearing owner that has to rely on domination rather than communication. and also, there is no such thing as a "quick-fix". you can not honestly think that by correcting your dog one or two times that the problem is gone. if you relly think about it, the pronlem will need to be addressed over and over no matter how you look at it. as far as sound aversion, or positive punishment, its not to scare the dog, its meant to break thier concentration than scaring. parents do the same thing with young children when they have their hand in the cookie jar. startling a dog is very different than scaring the wits out of it. and one last thing, on one episode i watch Cesar pull a dog (unwillingly to the point it started to choke) toward an object, a baby gate i believe, to get it to do what he wanted and establish the pack-leader mentality in the dog. what did that most likely accomplish? the dog being even more terrified into what the owner wanted it to do. you cant do that and expect phenomenal results. you wouldnt push a child, or adult for that matter, into a pool and expect them to love water. all things have to be taken in stride including training your animals. as i stated before, there are no quick-fixes and sometimes you have to grin and bear it if you are seeking the changes in behavior.

the reason victoria's clients still
lure their dogs to them with treats
and toys is because training isn't
supposed to be a quick fix.

No - training isn't supposed to be a quick fix, it's supposed to be a way of life. The issue is that a dog that requires treats and lures isn't working for the owner, he/she's working for the treat. As stated before, this does nothing IMO to help a dog understand it's role in a home.

Well said K9Guy, any parent would know NOT to give a child a reward for something he should do. This will only make the child NOT do it if they did not have a reward at the end. But if they know you're displeased with their wrong actions, they'll stop doing it immediately. Period.

C'mon people wake up! What she does is just a humane common sense approach. She uses positive reinforcement and it works. She never puts her hands on the dogs or intimidates them like Ceasar. This world and all the troubled dog friends are lucky to have people like her in it. Get a clue.

Stilwell never owned a dog until mid
2008, in her home in Atlanta. All the
time in the UK she never owned a dog.
In an interview blog done with the
Washington Post she admitted in late
2008 that after 6 months with her
adopted chocolate lab, her first dog,
that she still was unable to control
it, claiming that 'these things take
time' or some such drivel. She has a
good agent but she's pure fraud. Even
a blind squirrel finds a nut every
once in a while, and so of course even
this dimwit can fix Some dogs and Some
owners, but for her to claim even a
Hint of actual Expertise is ludicrous.
Comparing Stilwell to Millan is like
comparing an elementary-school band to
the Beatles. Many thanks to Nat Geo
for ignoring the Cesar-bashers and
continuing to provide us a glimpse of
the wonderful insights he posesses.

qoute ceaser millian dog trainer one human one dog, pack leader one human many dogs. vitoria is good if your gona bribe your dog all the time. i believe when you are the pack leader your dog is at its happiest, victoria leaves and the dog is still in control only its on its way to obesity!!! ceasar leaves and the dog and owner is far happier,in control and better bonded. which would you want??

A very well know Marine Mammal Trainer, Ted Turner, was once asked why Dog Trainers continue to use force to teach there dogs. His responce was, quite simply, because they can. (end quote) This, however, does not make it okay! Go train a dolphin with your force based method and let's see what you come up with! I have viewed many of Millan's episodes and witnessed him choking the dogs out into what he calls submission. Are you kidding me? What fricken show are you guys watching?None of the "in favor of Millan" comments make any sense to me and it is quite clear that many do not have a solid understanding of canine behaviour.

Balanced training is not forced based, it does, however, use all 4 quadrants of operant conditioning. This includes some corrections coupled with praise, encouragement, help, etc.

Return the dolphin to the sea and guess what kind of recall you have - none.

In an discussion thread I reviewed recently.....

///////////////////////////////////////

I once attended a seminar featuring Ted Turner the famous dolphin trainer.
He was asked why dog trainers use aversives and he replied, "Because
they can."

Later he said, "Good trainers give more information than bad trainers."

To sum up: Dogs can tolerate and use more kinds of information than wild
animals can. And they thrive on all the information they can get. Don't
short change them.

Margie English, NY

//////////////////////////////////////

- guy

stilwell has only owned a dog untill recently because traveling accros the country would be unfair to a dog

...actually, a lot of people including trainers travel extensively with their dogs....

- guy

Thank goodness there are people like you out there!

I live in the UK and recently discovered Cesar Milans show by accident. Watching it I was amazed at how he managed to change behaviours that had been going on for years; within 20 minutes.

My Mum prefers Victoria Stilwell and though I tried to like her approach, I found myself more and more disenchanted with each passing minute.

There has only been one episode where I have seen a positive (and tested) change in the dogs but I think this was due to the firm hand of the owners partner more than it was down to her and her rather dubious skills.

I do not doubt that for some dogs her methods work but you should not have to constantly distract a dog in order to get results.

My parents recently adopted a dog from the Dogs Trust (excellent place that I highly recommend) and he was about a year old, full of beans and loved to pull on the lead. Despite having been walked by about 30 different people and there being no change in his behaviour, I took the lead (with calm, assertive energy) and I made the sound "sshh!" and pulled the lead slightly.

It took him a while but within 10 minutes, he was for the most part, walking by my side rather than pulling me along.

Though Cesar's techniques are "harder" than Victoria's, his are ones that do get results, lasting and fast results.

I would highly recommend Cesar Milan and his philosophies to anyone who wants to learn about trying to train dogs or dog psychology.

Here's the thing with Cesar -- what he does works wonders for him. He's good at it, and he clearly gets results. But I will go with Victoria's methods each and every time for the simple reason that I am not Cesar, and his methods require a sort of consistency, restraint, and instinct that I don't believe can be reliably passed on to others.

Victoria seems to largely operate on a "first do no harm" rule. The only thing that could happen to a dog under Victoria's training guidelines is that it would get fat. But I see people regularly trying to apply Cesar's techniques and am horrified. They just don't have the finesse or confidence that Cesar does, and so they overreact or are wildly irregular. They yank the choke collar too hard, they push the dog to the ground every hour, they jab it or kick it in the side. So while I'm pretty sure Cesar himself is good at what he's doing, I think the efforts of well-meaning amateurs trying to follow in his footsteps are disastrous.

So for really troubled dogs, the solution might well be intense personal training for owner and dog with someone like Cesar -- but I'm not sure anyone should think they can train like Cesar does from a book or watching TV. Victoria, on the other hand, can get very good results and has such emphasis on not hitting/shouting at/staring down the dog that it's kind of impossible to accidentally damage your dog. I think she's safer for general consumption and a good model for the average owner who doesn't have a one-on-one trainer.

As for Victoria not owning a dog of her own -- eh. She owned a dogwalking business in London, then a dog training service, and then hopped between the US and UK for over a decade. Some people might travel with their dogs, but from what I understand the UK/US transfer is not something you can regularly do with a canine in tow (I waited to get my own dog until I was pretty sure I wouldn't be flying to London every few months). It's not particularly safe for the dog to be in a plane that frequently, there are weather restrictions, and I think the UK won't let your dog in twice in under 12 months anyhow, due to rabies. So it's somewhat understandable that a NY-LON trainer waited until she was settled with a child on one continent before getting a dog.

Oh, also -- there seems to be a general suspicion that clicker and PR training means that the owner is permanently doomed to use a clicker and bring a bag of dog treats everywhere. That's not how it works at all; it's intensive reward-based training, and then the reward is either phased out for praise or a toy or something.

People read "never click without treating" and make the leap that the clicker's a permanent thing. The initial acquiring of the behaviour is what the clicker's for. And hell, it's worked marvellously for me. I have a confident, calm dog who knows what's expected of her.

Again, I can't say the same for people who were in my initial dog training courses and I now see at the dog run. Many of them took the Cesar route, and their dogs can be erratic from month to month.

Unfortunately, it seems like exactly the wrong sort of owner-personality decides that he should start using Cesar's methods -- basically, I think people who are more inclined to bully their dogs tend to find Cesar's way appealing, and then they do it wrong. This isn't a reflection on Cesar, it's just an observation that Cesar's methods might not translate via TV.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoints. Certainly harm can be done with any training tool or methodology. This post began as a review of Victoria Stilwell's program and my concerns over what I saw as confused dogs with very limited results. I suppose an argument can be made that her methods are harmless, but a poorly behaved or untrained dog can live a very poor quality of life, and be misery or a liability for its owners.

There will always be those who mis-apply all manner of information. Dog training methods fostering communication and respect will garner reliable results, those creating confusion or intimidation will not. Important points to consider when thinking about professional help!
- guy

Look. Number one... Cesar is NOT even certified. Also, any show that warns you to "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME" is just stupid. Come on people. Wake up.
I have seen Cesar get bit too many times on his show. I have never seen Victoria get bit. Not once.

You will never catch me trying any of Cesar's methods at home.

I've watched both shows fairly extensively, and find positives and negatives to both styles, although I lean more toward Milan as his current episodes seem to be mixing more PR technique with his old technique as I prefer. Milan also seems to work with each of the owners restrictions and limitations and bad decisions with a positive and kind yet firm attitude, rather then stilwell's style of berating and demeaning the owners for making poor decisions before she begins to help them. Granted I'm sure it's for entertainment purposes, but for me it's counterproductive.

Overall both are TV shows and following any advice shown on TV, whether or not it seems ok, without doing your own research or asking a professional is foolhardy at best. The fact that Milan's show actually tells you to consult a professional makes more sense then implying one or two methods will help every dog as stilwell's show does.

i hate its me or the dog on one episode victoria told a family to put a perfectly good,healthy dog down and she didnt even try to help it.

Her most recent show resulted in her expounding that using any form of slip or correction collar will ALWAYS result in a collapsed trachea on a dog. It is irreponsible and dangerous. She is making sweeping generalizations and personally I find it irresponsible.

I'm currently working with a Dobermann that has dog aggression problems & has spent 2 years (literally) with P+ trainers & behaviourists (the dog ignores treats if another animal MOVES) and the dog is redirecting aggression to the owners calf regularly at this point. He thought there was no hope, and I asked if he wanted to try something different. I put a nylon slip collar on her, set her up with one of my own dogs. When she exploded, a quick pop correction and she turned faced me and sat down.

In 20 minutes we had changed something that had plagued his relationsihp with her for years! A behaviourist took his money for 8 months, then said the dog would likely need euthanized because it wasn't responding to any food/lure. Another one of the trainers actually said he would just have to avoid other animals for the rest of the dog's life, because they were unable to find a way to get her to stop. This was 3 weeks ago, and the owner is overjoyed!! He had spent almost a $1,000 with these other people and was still unable to deal with her and we've dealt with this in just 2 weeks. I did check on him & he says the dog is perfect and enjoyable to walk again, as she's now going for walks daily for the first time in years.

Please PLEASE people -> bring balance back to dog training. I'm not advocating all correction (I use food and toy lures in my training as well), but I'm certainly not advocating all positive either - do what helps the individual dog - that's what we all want isn't it???

I think that most of you are being very harsh towards Victoria Stilwell. Is it because she's British?
Although I think Cesar is fantastic at what he does (i would marry him) I think his way of training is for people who know what they are doing or have one to one with Cesar personally!
Victoria's methods are easy to copy at home and she does state that eventually you wean your dog off the treats. My dog has responded well to Victoria's training methods and he is a very well behaved little pooch. He has been weaned off the treats and will sit, stay, watch me, leave, come and wee all by hand signals alone. This has all come from me copying Victoria on it's me or the dog.
At the end of the day, you have to go with what is right for you and your dog and what you are comfortable with.

PS. I have watched pretty much all the episodes of its me and the dog USA and English ones, but I missed the one that Victoria told a family to have its dog put to sleep........

But if she did, (a big if) it would have probably been for its own good. I'm sure Cesar or any dog professional would recommend the same thing for a dangerously aggressive, uncontrolable dog. I'm all for helping dogs/ owners work through problems but sometimes its kinder not only to the animal but to the possible child that could be savaged to death. Some dogs have gone too far to be helped and as sad as it is, i'd much rather responsible owners took the correct decision than expose my children (or my dog) to being mauled.

I have seen both the Dog Whisperer and It's me or the Dog. And I must say I like Victoria Stilwell's training method's better than CM. The show that doesn't follow-up on client's is the Dog Whisperer. I have rarely seen him go back to a client to check on progress. Victoria deal's mostly with everyday issue's with dog's rather than CM. Who deals with bad dog behavior and/or red zone cases. And he uses the same old equation exercise, discipline and affection. It's gotten to a point where it's BORING. He show's nothing new at all. At least Victoria's show will tackle different behavior issue's and I have seen her follow-up on her client's. And the fact is the owner's play a large part in the dog's misbehavior and they are the ones who have to learn to correct it. So to me it is a matter of training preference.